Daniel and I, still hanging on : )

Daniel,

Thank you for your response and your thoughts. You are right that Jesus was about much more than non-violence. Not every non-violent activist, nor would all claim to be, follow Jesus. You can also practice non-violent actions, but be full of hate. But it is interesting that in traditions other than Christianity, Jesus is considerred to be clearly non-violent and that is part of why other traditions reject his message.

The gospel is priority, but my point was this: if it was merely a fact of making a statement, Jesus would never have said “not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” It is not a matter of how many times you say you are gospel-centered or you invoke Jesus’ name. Bringing in a chaplain to an execution doesn’t make it God-ordained.

Communion with God, his love, his bold tranquility is, to me, the reason for existence. And Jesus, the ultimate example of this communion, the spirit of God in man, was a man of proactive, loving action, not mere words. Again, when he was offered all the kingdoms of the world, it was the inward spiritual communion that he valued, not external power. And we can’t seperate the importance between the two. If Jesus knew that the inward reality was infinitely more important than outward cirmunstances, what does it say about our faith to say we know better than Jesus and reach for the external, compulsive force that he rejected? Can we rule the world better than he would have as an officially recognized government head? And if the cross is the center of our faith, how can we use that event to justify killing when the very nature of the event was that Jesus refused to fight and let the example of standing by the salvation of inward communion with God conquer the worst kind of pain and suffering and death it’s self?

I’m glad you explained your thoughts like you did, because I think you hit on a large part of the challenge: in individual relations, we accept peace between eachother as being part of our religious practice. But to say war is not peace between men illustrates the dehumanizing nature of war. I hope you understand I am not judging you on this, it is so easy-I certainly am guilty of it-to sit back in a classroom or a computer screen and just see war as numbers and figures… as an expression of politics or diplomacy. It is a cultural construct, from history textbooks to news tickers, to recognize war in terms other than humanity. Once you get into the military system, it gets more intense; it is ineffective for the military to recognize humanity. A study done in WWII showed that only 15-20% of soldiers actually shot to kill the enemy. The psychological reasons for this were studied, a focus on not recognizing the enemy as humans began, and by Vietnam the number had increased dramatically ( http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm, very interesting article).

And that is why I am making a big deal about how children are raised, especially in a religious society. It may be true that in the singles ministry these policies have changed, but it doesn’t matter for me! The ideas and practices I was taught growing up, helped compel me to want to enlist, to think it was the right thing to do and I didn’t have the luxury of getting the “adult” policy. But what does this say? If in high school I was expressly forbidden from dating and the dangers of secular music were constantly being railed about, then I have every justification for asking why the same care and caution wasn’t taken in how I was trained to value human life. If “wordly music can corrupt my soul, what does playing violent video games do? If I am supposedly too immature to understand dating, how can I even begin to understand killing?

But in practice, not only is this not question or warned about, but the opposite is encouraged! The following quote is from the daughter of the leader of a massive evangelical chain of churches, the one I grew up in:

“It’s never too early to begin teaching our children about God’s design for men and women. We’re constantly telling Jack, “That’s what boys do!” Boys hold the door for the girls. Boys play with army men. Boys are tough. And boys aren’t better than girls, we explain. Just different. And we celebrate the differences.”

-Nicole Whitacre http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/category/girl_talk_book_club/

 

 

 

 

When you say things like history camps that play war honors the duty of soldiers past, again I ask, what is this duty? Was it the duty of a Christian to kill British soldiers because they were not granted representation in British Parliment? Was it the duty of Christian southerners to kill northerners when their economic, slave-fueled, well-being was at stake? Was it the duty of Christians in the north to kill to break the plantation system? Duty is usually a word of intimidation to compel someone to comply without asking questions and that is not a virtue. And to dress up and run around the woods with toy guns is to make light of their service. Toy guns, lazer tag, paintball, ect are not acts of solidarity-ask any veteran if they feel honored by these games or if they give you any shred of understanding what war is really like-they only thing they honor is a system that doesn’t want you to differentiate between games and human life. Military recruiting has moved an even bolder step in this direction. Using the familiarity of kids with violence in popular culture, an “army experience center” has various virtual reality war games set up for kids as young as 13, run by military recruiters in case anyone wants to play war in real life. (http://shutdowntheaec.net/?page_id=184)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 “so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” -Jesus, as quoted by Matthew, Chapter 5

Who are we to say those that God sends the rain and the sun to are worthy for us to kill. We can make every excuse for why war is justified, and in physical terms, there often is good reason in the short term-comfort, wealth, safety, power, etc. If you want to argue war on that level, that’s an entirely different discussion. But based on the direct words of Jesus, God incarnate, there is a standard beyond only loving those who love you back. We are called to be perfect; it doesn’t mean we won’t ever falter in the face of danger, but it means that we cannot ignore what this says about God’s self-attested nature. It also means that when militarism and violence is nurtured by the very churches who place God as the ultimate authory, that the burden of truth rests on us to confront this contradiction. You can say your faith is in God, but how does your message and life reflect that statement?

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In response to:

In regards to the Peace Gospel preacher: I am all for peace, and I will confess I too quickly become antagonistic at times. However, the real Gospel’s central message is about Christ paying for our sins and giving us his righteousness, creating peace between us and God.

There are many scriptures saying to be at peace with one another, I concur there. I just felt like clarifying that the Gospel Jesus preached was not primarily one of peace between men and men. That is not nearly as big a problem as our relation with God. After God saves us, our actions, beliefs and thoughts change to reflect the transformation He has done, including acting in kindness towards others.

As for history camp: Remembering bravery is not glorifying war. Those men faced their duty and pressed onwards. To remember that is not to make light of anything; it keeps us from making light of their service.

As for other statements about Covenant Life, saying “In a church that didn’t allow secular music or dating, the strictness on violence” is broadbrushing. They kept to that view for high schoolers because mose high schoolers are too immature for dating. Some pastors disagree on the secular music thing, it is debated. Some listen to whatever music they feel they can listen to and still thank God for. Others avoid it entirely. How do you know what those people think? At any rate, it becomes totally different once you reach the singles ministry. If there are widespread problems regarding what is taught to teenagers about music and dating, it is likely just a youth ministry thing.

For the violence thing… you are right. whenever the Gospel was at stake, they didn’t fight. God used their blood to fertilize the rocky ground of unbelieving souls, and the truth continued on. But we are still a part of this world even though our allegiance is to God above anything else. I think that means we are to serve our countries as long as we do so according to God’s law. The commandments say to not kill, but elsewhere in scripture God also gives power to the government to bear the sword and uphold society by the enforcement of law, without which civilization would crumble. Yes, too frequently nations plunge into war, often needless ones, but sometimes bearing the sword is needed so that evil man does not oppress other men.

To end my point… I agree that we do not focus enough on spreading peace. But a church that teaches the message of the gospel is one that’s doing its job. Maybe you weren’t listening very well to the sermons when you were around… I am blessed to hear the gospel a lot in my church.

and yes, that dork in the redcoat jacket is me. HI THERE.